In conversation with Jyoti Sagar Founder of J. Sagar Associates and K&S Partners
Mr Sagar, you have been in the legal industry for over four decades. You founded J. Sagar Associates (JSA) in New Delhi in 1991 as a solo practitioner, a firm that has since consistently ranked amongst the top law firms in the country. In 1994, you founded K&S Partners, an Intellectual Property boutique firm, which is an equally well-established firm in annals of the Indian legal firms.
Not just in India, you’ve been globally recognized and conferred with titles like an ‘immensely versatile and experienced’ lawyer; rated as ‘one of India’s most esteemed lawyers’; a “top bracket corporate law expert,”; you’ve been credited by Chambers Global as a person with “real charisma and flair” and a “hands-on, inspiring style”; PLC Which Lawyer has also honored you with a ‘highly recommended individual’ title in three categories namely Intellectual Property, Corporate and M&A; and the list goes on.
How would you describe this illustrious journey that started with night classes at the Delhi University Evening Law Center?
It has been a happy, satisfying and exciting journey. From the time I started, almost half-century ago, as a day time intern in a lawyer’s office and law student taking the evening classes, my journey has coincided with monumental events in the country—the national emergency, the difficult situation with terrorism in many parts, deep economic troubles and eventually the opening up of the economy, and beyond. The legal profession has undergone a complete change through this period literally in all its aspects—what we practice, how we practice, the clients, and the competition. One has seen the transition from manual typewriters to Artificial Intelligence! The journey is not yet complete as there are things still left to be done!
JSA, as we all know, is the torchbearer for meritocracy and democracy. The firm is founded on the principles of—no family members in the firm, no goodwill buy-in at entry and no goodwill payment at retirement from partnership, a fixed retirement age, a broad-based management structure and a fair mechanism for profit-sharing at the equity partner level. What led you to this pathbreaking decision?
In our lives, we have turning points. A life-changing turning point for me was the meeting I had with my uncle who was the sole proprietor of the law firm and the subject of discussion was my prospects of becoming a partner. This was April 1991. By then I had spent 19 years in that firm—3 years as an intern and 16 years as an Associate. During that period, the firm had grown manyfold. The growth in the practice was not due to just one person—the proprietor. Many including me, had surely contributed to the tremendous success of the firm. But, I realised that those contributions did not carry any meaning or value. An offer was made to me to buy a small percentage of share and the goodwill of the firm for what at that time was an enormous amount of money! I wondered if I had added “bad-will” to the practice now that I was being asked to pay for “good-will”? I wondered what was the price to pay for my youth that I had dedicated to that law practice – the proverbial blood, sweat, and tears. In a “noble” human capital based profession, treating other professionals so poorlydid not sound right to me. This incident generated a profound impact as well as self-curated inspiration to build something different—to build a professional organization that recognizes young professionals and provides them a platform for personal and professional growth not limited by how much cash you can invest in buying a piece of the organisation.
I Founded JSA in the year 1991 as a solo practice; it had grown to just about 15 lawyers when in April 1998 I invited two of my then colleagues, who had been greatly instrumental in helping me build the practice, to become equity partners in the firm. They were surprised when told that they did not have to buy into the goodwill—because they had helped to create it in the first place. As years progressed, the firm grew and by 2003 we established the framework of a collegial and professional partnership with no vested interests, where there was no equity or goodwill buy-in, merit got rewarded by invitation to join the partnership, and the provision of retirement age. And of course, the no family rule. We felt that genius was more important than genes; and making a name is better than living off a “surname”.
In your long career, while you must have faced so many hurdles, is there any incident that you found particularly challenging to handle? How did you power through the problem?
Hurdles are a part of life. And I faced a few. To begin with, I am a tiny guy. Of a short stature. My parents and early mentors encouraged me to have self-belief, a purposeful life, the will to excel, and not let my physical shortcomings come in the way. They egged me on—I was told—great things come in small packages; quality over quantity; diamonds versus coal! I built on that self-belief and am lucky and grateful that I have had modest success. So, self-confidence, focus, belief, purpose, values—these factors held me on course.
Mr Sagar, we have heard a very endearing story about you and your wife. Is it true that Ms Prema Sagar, who is known for being one of Asia’s most influential public relations personalities, ran away from home to marry you? Did your skills as a lawyer come in handy to make a case for it? Any advice to the young brigade of lawyers in the matters of the heart?
My wife Prema is one of the veterans of the public and media relations space—in India, Asia, and globally. She is an incredible leader and is one of the icons of the modern public and media relations consulting profession. She has great entrepreneurial spirit—even while she was bringing up the children, she always had things that she did on the side. She started her true professional career after the kids had grown up a bit. Starting as a solo from an extra room in my first office, she built her practice to one of the largest in the country within a period of 15 years. I am very proud of her.
To go back to history, we met at our workplace—the law firm where I worked; we fell madly in love and decided to get married. I was just 23 and she was just a few months short of that. We have been mavericks and outliers in many ways—so wedding was no different. We invited our respective sets of parents to a civil wedding that we hosted in our newly rented house. My parents came, her’s did not, but her younger brother attended the ceremony. We had 30 close friends and family at our ceremony—in all it cost us a grand sum of Rs.235/- with tea and coffee and three snacks for the guests. And you know what, all was well with my parents-in-law within a few weeks of the wedding. I had a great and loving relationship with them and their support throughout. So my advice to youngsters in this matter is—follow your heart, do not worry about social conventions; pomp and show and opulent curated weddings are wholly unnecessary and wasteful (and no guarantee that you will have a happy married life!); never forget that you and your life partner are truly partners who have to give not only mutual respect but space to each other for personal and professional growth; live below your means; and maintain a balanced life—I am not a fan of the expression “work-life balance”. That makes an artificial distinction between work and life. Work is life too. But it must be balanced with other pleasures, duties, and commitments in our lives. That is why I prefer the expression “Balanced Life”.
What is the biggest challenge in the legal industry at the moment in the COVID-19 Era? What are the most critical changes that we must make to face the future effectively? Also, what can law firms do today to ensure they survive in an era of disruption?
Biggest challenge—Remote work and adoption of technology. Larger firms are equipped in terms of digital infrastructure and skills whereas, smaller players and individual attorneys particularly engaged in court practice would have substantial challenges.
For law firms: Anticipate and prepare for an unprecedented situation like COVID in terms of technology, delivery models, liquidity and upskilling people. Most crucial factor than the structural preparedness is building the right culture that exhibits ‘empathy and trust’ towards your clients, people and all the stakeholders. One needs to empower and trust people, especially when we are working remote.
As lawyers, what is the number one way we can make a substantial difference to the future of our country? You, Sir, have been associated with many charitable causes. Please tell us a little about your foundation—Genesis.
A sense of giving back to the community. Do not forget that our freedom struggle was led by lawyers! Empathy and caring for those who are not as blessed as one is—that must stay close to one’ heart. Over the years, my wife and I have tried to do our bit. As mentioned earlier, there are events that are life-changing. As a family, we have had ours. Many years ago we lost our second-born son to a congenital heart defect. He passed within 20 hours of his birth. The grief stayed with us for long but led us to set up Genesis Foundation years later. A belief that every child has the right to live a healthy life, and that is why we started Genesis Foundation. Genesis Foundation, a trust created to provide access to world-class medical care to underprivileged children suffering from congenital heart defects, which remains in our country as one of the leading causes of infant mortality. Genesis Foundation is the leading NGO in that space.
Would you please share your opinion on the government's COVID-19 strategy. Is the government taking all the necessary steps to kickstart the economy?
I am not a professional economist or health care professional. From my perspective as a layperson in this area, this has been a mixed bag. The positives: early lockdown, Janata Curfew, digital initiatives like Arogya Sethu, the stimulus package, building up of healthcare capacity during the lockdown period.
Areas for improvement— as always best of our policies do not give the best results due to lack of proper implementation: that is what has happened here; stimulus package has been largely ineffective for those who really need it, migrant labour situation was a disaster; levels of testing have been not so great. One hopes that the peak will come soon and the second wave, if any, would be contained by a better-prepared nation.
And we as people have to do our bit. We still see people not following social distancing. Many don’t wear masks. This is a marathon and we can win it only by doing the right things.
From the treasure trove of your experiences, what is one piece of practical advice you would give to someone starting out as a lawyer or looking to specialise in a particular field? Would you agree India needs more generalist-lawyers than experts in limited areas of practice?
There is no silver bullet answer of yes or no. Let me give this a twist. For business or corporate lawyers—working in-house—being a generalist is better; but for external service providers—specialisation is necessary at a certain level and more so in larger law firms. Big corporates are becoming more and more self-sufficient with their in-house legal departments doing more and more and they tend to reach out to external advisers on complex issues. On the other hand, the segmentation of the market has not been addressed in India. There is a large section of the economy—take the MSME sector; or geographically tier 2, 3 and 4 cities—which are underserved by the profession. It is a fact that a large part of those segments relies on their chartered accountants for legal advice! How about addressing that market? In that space—generalists would do better.
Who are the people who have inspired you the most in this profession, and how?
I have been blessed to have many mentors and guides in my life. Talking of the profession, I would name three: My uncle Dr Vidya Sagar, with whom I had the honour and privilege of working for 19 years—he taught me the nuances of the written and spoken word and client handling tips and techniques; Mr Amar Raj Lall, with whom I spent several years working on complex matters. What he taught me was—“assume nothing”—examine the key facts and critical legal points yourself. And lastly, Mr J. K. Kaul, an elderly lawyer in my old firm, where I was an understudy but despite a huge age difference, we became wonderful friends. He was a stickler for thoroughness and details. His refrain to me would be “padho gadhe”. I learnt all I know at the feet of these three gentlemen.
Thank you so much for doing this interview with us, Sir. As a final note, would you please recommend to our readers your favourite book or movie/series that left a lasting impression on you.
Over the last few years, a lot of my reading has been around the language of the law—an area I am passionate about. My favourite author in that area is Bryan Garner. I would encourage your readers to pick up a good book on contemporary legal writing style. In more recent times, I have enjoyed reading Simon Sinek and Yuval Noah Harari. Currently, I am reading (or actually listening to as an audio book)—Thinking, Fast and Slow by Daniel Kahneman. Once in a while, I listen to TED Talks. To relax, I like watching comedy shows or films. Over the last ten years, The Big Bang Theory was a great favourite. Sadly, the show got over recently after 12 seasons. And not to forget Tom and Jerry that I still enjoy with my granddaughters.
