In Conversation With Shalini Saxena, Head Of Legal CoinDCX
Ms Saxena, would you please tell our readers what motivated you to pursue law.
At various stages of my age and career, that answer may have varied. Today the memory of my reasons for picking law as a subject are hazy, but the reasons I stayed in this field and went from strength to strength as a professional are clear and constant across the years.
For me, law is about what I do and how I deal with it each day, whether it’s trying to solve issues, find positions against potential exposure, applying to situations to understand what next, law helping business etc..For me law is multi-dimensional, no one fit, constantly evolving and keeps me on the road to growth. You know what we studied at college (I did the 3 years post-grad LL.B) was like a high-level introduction to various elements of law, the law I learnt or continue to learn is on the job when faced with a problem or a question, the subsequent research that we put in to find answers or dig deeper, the rounds of debate and discussions after and the outcome.
To answer your question, I may have picked law as a subject given it gives a range of possibilities as a professional, well-respected, very popular, and creates a niche skill; but I stayed the course because law is like Jack and the Beanstalk, it just keeps you growing with no chance of just floating, rotting stagnating.
Your legal career has been nothing short of an inspiration for many aspiring and young legal professionals. Who are the mentors you have looked up to and admired? How have they helped you in shaping your career?
I have never really had a formal mentor assigned, but I have definitely sought them voluntarily across 22+ years of working.
Let me start with my first job as a lawyer, which I have said before, was me going the other way round, i.e. I started at Supreme Court under a senior lawyer Lt. Mr. Kapoor, who just threw a newbie into drafting, research and participating in the briefing. He encouraged me to shadow him and then do the next one myself, even if it was criminal cross-examination and needless to say I was terrible. I don’t remember him making a big deal out of it, all he did was give me pointers on what I could do better and soon sent me off for another cross. He was really old and many stories on his career and examples of situations and what he did in them were my lessons to pick or discard.
Moved to a niche law firm, with young partners and a very collaborative working style. Dealing with various laws (some of them were not even part of the law college syllabus) and nuanced elements within them, this was my real law school in a way. Both Partners- Amit & Shivendra were my teachers, whether it was having a certain style of drafting, need to look round the corner, discussions with clients, not hasten to respond but rather check, check again and then send out. The thumb rule was, do a 360 degree and make your your work aesthetically perfect, content-heavy and relevant. No matter how small the query give your best. This lesson stays a cornerstone of my career. To date I never let a badly formatted or half-baked document leave my desk.
I moved to GE in 2004, which is my alma mater, the mentors now were not necessarily people higher in position to me. They were colleagues, interns, and trainees across functions, verticals and geographies. Each left an impact which shaped the way I walk my path. It could be the tenacity and deep understanding on business that my sales team had or the grit and patience the backend teams demonstrated or the passion to learn the young interns and trainees got into the office. All these were both valuable and tangible, I did not seek but they were there for me to learn from. If K&B honed my legal skill, GE worked on my DNA and gave it both character and credibility.
At GE everyone becomes the best version of himself/herself and you work to make others so, whether it by introducing new ways of thinking, your limiting assumptions being challenged, leaders and peers sharing valuable life lessons, multiple training not necessarily functional and many more.
During my first stint with GE, with all of 4 years of experience behind me, I was sure that I wanted to be a corporate or in-house lawyer. GE just helped me go one step in understanding the importance of being a sound business or commercial lawyer. GE inspires me so much that many years later, like I say in fun the repeat offender went back home and joined the GE Power & Water (Renewables) vertical, as a lawyer + Risk Attorney. Did I need to do a course in risk, No, I was learning that on the job(s).
In a nutshell for GE and to both my women managers, Jyoti and Tejal respectively, in my 2 stints, the bar was set high, whether it was the eagle eye to zip down in a blink and spot the issue on the ground; or how to manage people with diverse backgrounds, skillsets, emotional space, hierarchy; or navigating ones career while helping teams grow or even Mahesh, my business leader, that one ear that always heard my side and backed me no matter what (not by missing to give me constructive feedback off course); entrusted me with such a huge responsibility to never fall short.
I have worked with the best, and aim to have them be proud of me; to be any less will not be acceptable. They continue as my sounding board or mentors till date on many matters.
Today my learnings are by observing Sumit, his courage and his vision for CoinDCX. . He’s shaping the 'last leg of my career' by making me unlearn to learn so much more new or the old differently. While he respects the laurels I may have earned, the challenge is for me to earn some new ones, to navigate this web 3.0 crypto where there is no law; rather a young CEO who aspires to do what is right under the law, wants to help the regulator understand his business and needs them to support him run a business in this country in-tandem with them.
CoinDCX is one of India's fastest-growing crypto businesses. Tell us a bit more about the company and your role as General Counsel.
CoinDCX is a leader in the crypto space with a strong investor base. 3 months with the company I can say it’s a thought leader as well and believes in leading by example on many initiatives which are relevant at an industry level.
You should read up on the “About Us” section on the site or follow the founders on Twitter.
The legal function alongside compliance and Policy plays a significant role within the company and as a function within the industry, navigating the law or lack of it. The fact that this is an unregulated industry is good given we get to create our own boundaries and set the rules based on other more evolved geographies, “self-regulate”; it's daunting because one largely plays with no rule book to refer to.
For me personally, it’s still a learning curve that I’m on.
What are some peculiar challenges, governance and compliance complexities pertaining to your sector?
With the assumption that the crypto sector stays largely misunderstood, which largely results in a heavy hand being preferred when regulating, let’s break this up:
Primarily, the challenges the industry faces are largely arising from the assumption itself. The key elements that regulators in my view may worry about are:
Cryptocurrency Governance: Equity markets have clearly defined stakeholder structures for investor recourse. These structures have resulted in governance systems that protect investor interests and prevent rogue executives from running amok with the company. But cryptocurrencies have largely been shielded from similar oversight. There are enough instances where governance has gone wrong in the crypto world. DAO hack in 2017 is one such instance.
While most crypto players have their own governance program, there are several different possible governance structures:
User Governance- Blockchain governance is handled by blockchain users through on-chain votes.
Corporate Governance- Blockchain governance is handled by a corporation that controls the blockchain project.
Regulatory Governance- Blockchain governance is controlled by a regulatory body (either state-based or an industry group).
Developer Governance- Blockchain governance is handled by the core developers that don't take outside influence.
Cartel Governance- Blockchain governance is handled by the largest participants in the network.
The second is Compliance, the often used buzzword; the successful implementation of which will need international alignment, commonality of approach and progressive outlook. Some challenges faced even today:
Too big to handle
In a borderless world of digital finance, cross-border rules are erratically enforced and can come from just about any direction making what needs to be complied with very diverse and ever increasing.
The Travel Rule
FATF has introduced the Travel Rule into AML laws for crypto as well, i.e. a threshold that triggers mandatory collection and retention of transmit transfer information on international payments. The impossibility of devising a travel rule system everyone is happy with is the tip of the issue.
Verify customers properly
The sophistication of today’s social engineering attacks, where victims essentially do the work for the scammers and are more complicated to catch than a fake document, plus the additional vulnerabilities created by remote desktop access, makes scamming an existential question for the crypto industry. If you type ‘buy fake IDs’ on Google Search, you will get an idea of the problem crypto compliance teams are facing.
How do you foresee in-house departments changing with the emergence of AI?
I’m assuming most legal members dismiss AI as just a buzzword and hardly anyone today should be concerned that robots powered by AI will replace lawyers.
More seriously, AI is helping all of us in our d2d job and also helping in reducing costs and increasing productivity. All we need to do is stay current on technology and embrace new ways of working. Being a well frog does not help anyone, even a lawyer.
Today an important ask in a JD for a legal position is technology skills and projects implemented simplifying legal tasks using technology. Say a contract management tool implemented across a company by a lawyer should be a big +.
What’s your take on NFTs? Do you see them creating a win-win situation between technology, law and e-commerce?
NFTs seem to be taking the digital art and collectables world by storm. If Bitcoin was the digital answer to currency, NFTs are pitched as the digital answer to collectables. That being said NFTs have revolutionized other industries as well, say the gaming space, where players enjoy crypto gamification and financial rewards. NFTs successfully offer an array of benefits traditional gaming doesn’t, such as the play-to-earn model, interoperability of game assets and more. Building on in the e-commerce space because of the way that NFTs work, there are numerous use cases, especially on anti-fraud, loss prevention, quality assurance, and even customer loyalty and rewards, because store products can have a unique ID, and that ID is connected to the customer (via their email or their wallet), making results instantaneous.
If we have to look at this in a positive light, for collectables, it is a real effort to reward digital artists for their work and protect them. Particularly if they want to receive funds for their work from overseas on the internet. Particularly useful for individual artists, small companies etc. if implemented right. There is value in 'owning' digital pieces of history, and items, the same way that you would love to own a cricket ball from a famous match, maybe having the rights to something like the first tweet does have value.
Even the introduction of NFTs and the blockchain, in general, will enable the world to move from a linear economy to a circular economy which is designed to be regenerative.
The law will throw up challenges in the form of data protection, IP rights, royalty payment mode, proof of ownership, and transferring of digital assets in contrast to traditional sales by a P2P mode; but again all manageable.
Bottom line is much like the ICO boom in 2017 it’s important to allow things to mature, organically and sometimes guided, and see where it goes.
What are some of the misconceptions around crypto assets?
Cryptos are complex
Crypto coins can be easily hacked
Blockchain is a database in a cloud
The use of crypto-assets is inherently suspicious
Like anything new including a new technology there is potential to be used for unauthorized activities or purposes. There is no denying that there is a significant level of risk in the crypto space. But that is not to say that these risks cannot be managed, and the benefits of this new asset class should not be realised.
The implementation of the Data Protection bill is the need of the hour with the rise of India’s digital economy. What’s your take on the adequacy of the framework for the protection of non-personal data?
While the bill has been withdrawn and a new legislation promised, the question stays valid my view. I will start by submitting that the bill had received some unnecessary criticism. World over data laws have challenges of being limiting, invasive, not addressing every data concern in society etc. As the 5th largest democracy we will have some added complexities and political issues. But the fact that there are dialogues underway and the draft guidelines were being amended and new legislations or amending existing laws being contemplated are all steps in the right direction. The withdrawal itself shows the importance of lobbying, industry representation, and global dynamics.
Well, it’s time the law came out (with the hope that the pending ‘Digital India Act' is the 'comprehensive legal framework' referred to) we need to accelerate this and start the implementation journey which will have its own challenges. Today world over the importance of data protection and data privacy is unanimous. Covid just magnified the gaps and accelerated the need to have consensus b/w countries and governments. The risk to data today is changing every day and the perpetrator is leaps ahead of the security set-up. We are learning by failure, preparing for the next similar attack but then the attacker changes the mix. Now what?
On the non-personal data or anonymised datasets that shield the identity of an individual, it appears it was unlikely to be a part of the now withdrawn data protection law. If we go to the genesis the addition of non-personal data was recommended by the JPC whereas it was set up to examine the Personal Data Protection Bill, 2019. There was no real need for this recommendation to ideally creep in. Firstly, it complicates the scope of the intended law, second, it’s a deterrent to competitiveness, growth and development of international trade & commerce in a digital economy, and lastly its unparallel in the globe, i.e. no other country has Non-PII subject to the rigour of PII data point. The definition of Non-PII data for most countries being all kinds of data except PII Data and which is incapable of identifying a person.
It was established that the pipeline data law on PII was not apt to cover Non-PII in which case a framework for this will need to be worked on separately. EU has in fact launched a Regulation on a framework for the free flow of non-personal data aimed at removing obstacles to the free movement of non-personal data between different EU countries and IT systems in Europe. This could be a good starting point for India as well.
We now await the new framework.
You are also the co-founder of Cadre. Tell us a bit about the initiative.
It was a shared dream, dreamt separately by Rajneesh (an ex-GE lawyer and someone who I have only admiration and respect for) and me. What was the dream? … have a dispute-solving tool which is simple and accessible and affordable. Years of being an in-house counsel the time, effort and cost of litigation is a nightmare, hence the dream. Kanchan my co-founder is a techie and just what the dream needed- execution. I will say it officially that Kanchan is the wheel, the oil and the real horsepower that drives this Platform.
CADRE (Centre for Alternate Dispute Resolution Excellence) is India's foremost online arbitration Platform located in Bengaluru, Delhi NCR & Kolkata. Our mission is to remove barriers to dispute resolution by creating well thought, jargon-free, intuitive solutions available to individuals & businesses at affordable price.
The nature of disputes handled include secured & unsecured debt recovery, deficiency in services & payment disputes across a rapidly expanding range of industries (such as housing rental, NBFC, logistics, software dev etc.) which are clients to the Platform.
The Platform has now opened to inward funding and we can see some early interest already.
What to your mind has helped you get to where you are and what advice would you have for others who want to achieve success in the legal profession?
My honesty, to myself and to people who work with me, alongside me or even against me. When you say it straight and have no malice or agenda attached it can be quite disarming, at least it has been for me. It ensured that “motive” was not questionable and we may disagree but getting back in together was never a challenge. You end up forming some beautiful relationships, the ones that guide you, help you get clarity and dispassionately call out any concern. I guess that is also “mentoring”. For all of us in our careers to succeed we will need others, it is not possible ever to be totally self-made. Each one of us is the result of the effort put in by many, could be family, friends, teachers, managers, reporting line, and opponents.
The other important element is my varied and multi-dimensional experience, despite only four job changes in 22 years, given the industries, I picked and the diversity of the functional exposure I managed to get on that job, whether it was financial services, manufacturing, start-ups, patents, M&A, or advocacy. I put my hand up for all kinds of assignments and moved to verticals others may not have necessarily opted for.
To a question recently on “why did you join crypto”, I had responded, “when I moved from GE to Pine I was asked why Pine and time answered that question (Pine is a star and I set the entire function from the ground up), hopefully as I contribute to the future of the crypto industry, time will answer why crypto.”
Last, my litmus test- what kind of team did I make, if I step away, would my team continue to grow or would it slowly fall apart?
Good leaders raise leaders or make leaders. They are extremely secure about growing their people to be better and taller than themselves. Maybe this is something GE taught me, which had Jack Welch, a leader who established a legacy in developing other leaders.
My measure of success hence has never been an award list or assets I garnered, but the people I carried or rather who stayed around, as I progressed in my career, plus the enhancement I did to my skill. And that is my advice.
To fly or fall, you need to do one thing for sure and that is to be on the edge. Take a risk, invest in the right asset i.e YOU and others, fail, fall but keep walking, enjoy the walk and someday know when to stop and do other things in life. Never narrow the funnel, not even your career.
What keeps you busy outside work? Would you please recommend any book that has left a lasting impression on your mind?
Catching up with friends and reading, hopefully back to travelling soon. I read a lot, as of now I have 3 books that are in various stages to completion.
While there are many books that I always remember snippets from, the ones I go back to re-reading, or the comfort book you can read a million times; Let me pick “Team of Teams” by General McChrystal, Stanley A, as the one I want to recommend to anyone and everyone who works in an organization of any type. If the author can draw a parallel to Qaeda (AQI) insurgents, we are all definitely covered.
Using the structure of the US army as an example, the author lays down some must-change elements in the traditional mindset of today’s organization. The book begins when Saddam Hussein is already unseated, and a bitter struggle in Iraq is underway with the terrorists winning. While McChrystal’s forces are far better equipped and trained, they face an environment for which they are unprepared. The enemy is agile, innovative and resilient, with an extensive network of fighters with local autonomy but with access to instant communications with their leadership. McChrystal’s troops despite being superior, are losing ground. McChrystal realizes that to beat the enemy, he must transform his command to be like his adversaries. His own elite fighters must become more flexible and innovative, empowered to make on-the-spot, life-and-death decisions.
McChrystal breaks down the silos within the Task Force and replaces them with a “team of teams” organization with strong lateral ties. He uses transparent communication, a radical sharing of information about their operations, to create a shared consciousness. Everyone on the organizational chart accesses complete information from across the network, previously restricted to senior leaders. On the field, interdependent and fully informed operational teams make individual decisions in real-time.
What it aimed to teach…Leaders must guide and inspire, working continually to maintain a culture that is flexible and durable. Leaders also update their organizations continually because in constantly changing environments there are no permanent fixes.
Gripping, to say the least, the story is based on real events and has proven to be effective.
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